Posts by Sea Breeze

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

Let’s talk about Hebrews 1:6 from a different angle. This verse is where the Father says ”And let all the angels of God worship Him.” in reference to Jesus, or as the NWT renders it, “do obeisance to him”.

So how can we determine the most accurate way to translate this verse without the typical and unfruitful argument over the Greek?

Well, let’s take a look at what the watchtower has done throughout the years in regards to this verse.

- In the 1970 edition of the NWT, they rendered it as “And let all God's angels worship him.".

- In the 1969 Kingdom Interlinear, even though they changed the Greek rendering to be “let do obeisance toward”, they still render the actual translation as “let all God's angels worship him."

- In the 1984 NWT (with references) it reads "And let all God's angels do obeisance to him."

Now the important part of this, is in the reference column of the 1984 NWT, where there’s a reference to Deuteronomy 32:43. If you go read Deuteronomy 32:43, you won’t really find anything that seems to be a reference to Hebrews 1:6, but if you look a little closer at the reference, it actually says “De 32:43 LXX”. This LXX is a reference to the Lexicon or what’s more commonly known as the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament.

What do you see when you read the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 32:43? You see this: “43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him;…”

So these words are said about the Father in Deuteronomy 32:43, then the Father literally quotes Deuteronomy 32:43 as a directive for all of his angels to WORSHIP Jesus in Hebrews 1:6.

The worst part about all of this is that the watchtower knows all about it because they put the reference in the NWT. The reference has obviously been removed from the latest online version of the NWT, but you can go download the 1984 NWT in pdf format right off their website and see it for yourself. Clear as day, they reference the LXX / Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 32:43 in Hebrews 1:6. They make that connection themselves, all on their own.

So it’s blatantly clear to anyone doing just some basic research, comparing practically every other reputable translation along with the Septuagint, that this should absolutely be rendered as WORSHIP, and not how the latest NWT butchers it. The watchtower says it themselves by using that reference.

I know it, the watchtower knows it, and now you know it too.

35

Have I Drifted Too Far?

by sinboi in

i was shocked, really shocked.

what i am doing now is so acceptable to the friends around me.. my friends are all doing it.

it is so normal in the society,.

Sea Breeze

I don't know what you posted on Reddit. But, joining the military is a time honored method of disagreeing with a family or origin. It is very respectable. Thank you for your service.

Perhaps give yourself some time to find yourself and discover who you are. All of us here have family that are so hard headed that they have chosen to not be part of our lives. It's normal. You can deal with it. You can find a new tribe, and perhaps have a few relics of your old one too. But, maybe not. Life is precious. Don't waste it.

You can do it. Just honor yourself and seek to honor others.

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

Sea Breeze

TonusOH: Sounds like he is a stickler for technicalities. If he paid a price to redeem me, why not just
apply it and save me?

Because you have to receive the payment. Michael the Archangel didn't make the payment for you. Somewhat cryptically Abraham noted that Jehovah would provide himself as a sacrifice:

And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father...and he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb - Gen. 22: 7-8

It is your sinful nature this is opposed to accepting the terms of God. Sinful man is never satisfied with much of anything.... always wanting more, even from God. Cain had a similar objection:

Cain and Abel, "in the course of time” brought offerings to the Lord (Genesis 4:3). Without doubt, they were doing this because God had revealed to them the necessity of a sacrifice. God probably gave some details of what was acceptable, although those instructions are not included in the Genesis narrative.

Abel brought “the best portions of the firstborn lambs from his flock” (Genesis 4:4, NLT). Cain was a farmer, and his offering was “some of his crops” (Genesis 4:4, NLT).

Cain was really put off when his offering wasn't accepted. So, he (in effect) shook his fist at heaven and said, "That should have good enough for you"!

Unable to attack God, he murdered his brother in a jealous rage instead.

Receiving the payment from the right Jesus is crucial. It would be like providing a million dollar ransom with counterfeit bills and wondering why it wasn't acceptable.

Of course, logic doesn't really matter much when our very nature is opposed to God. The sinful nature can't be redeemed, it must die one way or another. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus three times that we must be "born again". The sinful self naturally doesn't want to die. But, the last time I checked, the death rate has been hovering steadily around 100%. So, logically, it really shouldn't matter to us. There is no down-side.

But, like I said, logic doesn't really matter much when you are fighting for your "life".... the one that will end in a few short years anyway.

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

Sea Breeze

The idea that Jesus is one person of a tri-personal God, eternally begotten, not made, and that he has two natures was an idea that was developed centuries later than the NT

@SBF

That is identical to WT theology. Here's my rebuttal to that on the previous page. Care to comment on the points:

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

And elsewhere in Scripture:

2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

And in writings of early church leaders trained by the apostles:

Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110])

“To the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God”. “For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr

“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

And the many good points from "Got Questions":

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as God, indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

I think Jesus' prediction that he would resurrect himself from the dead, while he was dead is the very best evidence he was God. It is far better than a simple proclamation which anyone can do, as I previously pointed out. This is the nail in the coffin on any doubt as to the deity of Jesus.

The reason this issue is so important is becasue we are saved by a legal agreement called (and described in Mt. 26: 27-28) the new covenant (New Contract). Rather than being a national contract like the one mediated by Moses in the OT, this one is a personal agreement with only two names on it - Jesus and the believer.

If you make an agreement with the wrong Jesus, your contract isn't valid.

56

The Reason Behind Recent Watchtower Changes

by Vanderhoven7 in

eric wilson's video is worth a view.. https://youtu.be/iil4fryuczk?si=f566n0tdqgpqc2ok.

Sea Breeze

So, a female WT lawyer (without a head covering, I might add) in a court hearing, made the biggest docttrinal chage in 80 years for the old geezers - the F&DS are no longer the 144K, but only the GB are. The lawyer made the doctrinal change for the WT, because the global group of the remnant of the 144K were being sued.

That's cool.... I'm diggin' it.

Lawyer quote:

"The F&DS class area a theological arrangement. And to understand what that means, think of a musical arrangement, you can listen to it, you can read the sheet music, but the sheet music isn't the music. You can have a recording of it, but it doesn't exist."

What a load of hot steaming lawyering manure.

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

Sea Breeze

Personally, I could never attend a denomination type church after my experience with Watchtower. Only local run independent and self-governing churches for me:

Non-Denominational

Baptist

Bible Churches

Calvary Chapel

There are probably others too. But, having said that, I know many fine Christians in denoiminational churches as well.

Christian churches are united on issues regarding salvation and differ mainly on issues of governing structure. The idea that there are thousands of churches with different ideas on salvatuion is promoted mainly by the cults for obvious self-serving reasons.

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

Sea Breeze

Jesus used two terms to describe himself: Son of God and Son of Man. This really irritated the Pharisees.

Before Pontius Pilate, “The Jews insisted, ‘We have a law, and according to that law He must die, because He claimed to be the Son of God’” (John 19:7). Why would His claiming to be the Son of God be considered blasphemy and be worthy of a death sentence? The Jewish leaders understood exactly what Jesus meant by the phrase “Son of God.” To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God. The Son of God is “of God” or out from the person of God. The claim was to be of the same nature as God, to in fact be God.

They would have just written him off as a nut normally. But his miracles made him impossible to ignore. They felt they had to confront him and get rid of him because people naturally are attracted to that kind of power, which they didn't have. People are still attracted to his power.

From Trinity Berean:

The common understanding is that “Son of God” implies his deity—which it does—and that “Son of Man” implies his humanity, which it does too.

He was a son of man, that is, a human being. And he is the Son of God, in that he has always existed as the Eternally Begotten One who comes forth from the Father forever. He always has, and he always will. He is the Second Person of the Trinity with all of the divine nature fully in him… So that’s the common understanding: he is both divine and he is human—two natures, one person.

The more sophisticated and important historical insight is that the term “Son of Man” doesn’t merely align him with humanity. It is probably taken from Daniel 7. And if you read that chapter you’ll see that the Son of Man is a very exalted figure: not just a human figure but an exalted figure. It was Jesus’ favorite self-designation…

“Son of Man” has the double meaning of human being and, according to Daniel 7, exalted heavenly one. And Jesus means to communicate both of those.

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

Sea Breeze

The developed doctrine of the trinity is post-biblical.

@ cofty - The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

And elsewhere in Scripture:

2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

And in writings of early church leaders trained by the apostles:

Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110])

“To the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God”. “For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr

“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

It's quite obvious to me that Jesus was/is a unique individual - separate from God.

I think Jesus' prediction that he would resurrect himself from the dead, while he was dead is the very best evidence he was God. It is far better than a simple proclamation which anyone can do, as I previously pointed out. This is nail in the coffin on any doubt as to the deity of Jesus.

Sea Breeze is not a "he". He said he is she in another thread.

Stan, I think you got me mixed up with someone else. Definitely a "he".

@TTWSYF

God has no legs or arms to build or create, he just speaks and his word carries ALL of his authority. Honor the son same as the father...that’s pretty bluntly spoken divinity, isn’t it?

I agree. I don't really understand the resistance on the deity of Christ or the Trinity for that matter. After all, we are talking about infinite power through nothing more than the spoken word. That's some serious power!

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

Sea Breeze

OK, I appreciate all the input from everyone. Let's look at the Creator contenders:

1. Odin - Eaten by a wolf. The meal was devine.

2. Thor - He killed a big serpent with his hammer but ultimately died from the serpent's poison.

3. Zeus - The greatest Greek God. Kratos killed him. Josepus writes that you could still visit the tomb of Zeus in Crete 2000 years ago.

4. Krishna - Considered by many to be the Creator. A hunter mistakely shoots Krishna in the foot with an arrow and he dies.

5. Nothing - The atheist Creator. The belief includes: life from non-life, matter from non-matter, order from chaos, information from non-intelligence, laws from lawlessness, logic from non-logic.

5. Allah - His greatest prophet got sick and died.

6. Jehovah - His greatest prophet is reportedly still alive.

7. Jesus - Predicted his own sacrifical death for sin atonement and subsequest resurrection.

So, the only contenders who show signs of life is Jehovah/Jesus. We wouldn't expect the Creator of Life to be dead. Why worship a dead person (or idea) ? That doesn't make any sense.

It's true that Jesus only spoke words that other people clearly understood to be a claim of the Almighty a few times. But, it was made clear in a number of other ways:

From "Got Questions":

Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when He said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. They tried to stone Him for blasphemy.

The Gospel of John begins with a statement of Jesus’ deity: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1, emphasis added). In verse 14, John identifies the Word: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John is affirming that the Word (Jesus) is God, and He left heaven to come to earth in the form of a man to live with men and display the glory of God the Father.

The disciples of Jesus distinctly heard Him declare His deity. After Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas the doubting disciple finally understood Jesus’ deity, declaring Him to be “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28). If Jesus were not Lord and God, He would have corrected Thomas, but He did not; Thomas spoke the truth.

After seeing Jesus walking on the water, His disciples worshipped Him (Matthew 14:33). When He appeared to them after the resurrection, they fell at His feet and worshipped Him (Matthew 28:9). The disciples were well aware of the Mosaic Law’s penalty for blasphemy, yet they worshipped Him as God, and Jesus accepted their worship. Jesus never rebuked people for worshipping Him, accepting their worship as good and proper.

Jesus’ deity is recognized throughout the New Testament. Paul eagerly awaited “the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13) and encouraged us to do the same. Both Paul and John declared that Jesus created the universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16–17), yet Genesis 1:1 clearly says that God created the heavens and the earth. This can only mean that Jesus is God. Even God the Father referred to Jesus as God: “About the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever’” (Hebrews 1:8, quoting Psalm 45:6).

My thoughts: Jesus was a doer as opposed to a boaster. He taught by doing stuff. For instance, when the Pharisees took great offence when he told someone that their sins were forgiven, because only God could forgive sins, he asked them a simple question: "Which is easier? To declare someone's sins forgiven or tell a paralytic to get up and walk"? The anwser is of course obvious. So he commanded the paralytic to get up and walk, and so he did.

Instead of Jesus running around proclaiming himself to be God, which is certainly not hard for anyone to do, he taught that he was God in a similar way that he taught that he could forgive sins, as God; he demonstrated it by doing things only the Creator could do.

John 2:19-21 and 10:17-18 say that Jesus predicted that he would die and resurrect Himself from the dead, while he was dead.

I think everyone would agree that if he accomplished this feat, that would put him far and above ANY contender for Creator that the world has ever seen.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. - John 2:19-21

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. - John 10:17-18

So, my point to this post is that there really isn't a lot to choose from when we leave the WT other than Jesus. He provides the kind of evidence that I personally am looking for. I think the other contenders fail the "test of life" that is required to account for the life on this planet.

Evidence for the Resurrection is all over the internet. Given the choices available to us as passengers on this planet, it seems highly reasonable to investigate it.

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

Sea Breeze

Arrogance shows itself in believers like Sea Breeze who claim to have the answers but NEVER provide the evidence.

@nicolaou

If you want to throw in an athiest point of view as "God", I'm ok with that. Just trying to collect all the options here at first.

So far we got Jesus, Jehovah, Allah, Nothing, can anyone think of any other contenders as God, the Creator etc. Is that the whole list?

Did any of the regional gods claim to be the Almighty? Thor, Odin, Zeus etc? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

I had a Hindu show me a picture of a young boy on a magazine once and told me this was Krishna. I asked who that was. He said Krisna was God. So, should we add Krisna to the list? I think so.